Had Enough

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Posts by Had Enough

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  35

  UPDATE ON VICKI BOER CHILD ABUSE TRIAL /SEPT 13

  by hawkaw in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i am saddened to report barb anderson and dr. james penton will not testify at the trial.. however, even better.

  penton wrote a lengthy letter and barb did a 30 page document as well.. both documents have been accepted into evidence by the judge and will be reviewed by the judge as part of her written decision.

  this means the documents will not undergo cross-examination which is a good thing.. so if you ask me - a partial victory.. there is more happening that i cannot discuss that is going vicki's way - stunning stuff actually.

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  Had Enough

  Thanks for the update Hawkaw:

  I am really upset that I could not get in to TO to be at the trial today. I would have loved to have seen the CAS worker in action "bitch-slapping" the Defence Councel.

  Plus, after witnessing yesterday's events with the Defence Councel trying to smear Frank Mottrell's character and the Judge snapping at the Defence Douncel for his tactics, I wanted to see Frank vindicate himself today, and at the same time do some smearing of his own with the facts, not with innuendos, half-truths and suggestive remarks like Defence uses . He made some damaging testimony yesterday with his descriptions of the two elders, Brown and Cairns, of their conflict with himself and the other elders. He was very clear on showing those two as being more interested in not reporting the abuse to "save the sinner" (the abuser) than obeying the law of reporting and showed no concern for his fear that this treatment was damaging to Vicki. His smear campaign against Frank seemed to be insignificant up against the points he made about the jealousy and conflicts at Bethel between the Service Dept and the Legal Dept when they were advising the elders about this case. My impression was that it made Bethel really look bad to non-JW onlookers and hopefully planted some seeds in the minds of the JWs in the audience as well.

  I'm so sorry to hear Jim won't be testifying...he came such a long way and he could have contributed so much. I'm sure his background knowledge would have painted a very clear picture of the inner workings of the hierarchy and his answers to the cross-examination of the Defence Councel would have caused a few more soiled drawers in the audience.

  From what I have seen of the Judge, she seems to be very fair-minded and the info from Barbara and Jim should be an asset to help her see the control this org has wielded and the effect it has had and still does have on the elders and the ordinary rank and file.

  I was glad to talk to Vicki for a few moments so that she knew some were in the audience cheering her on. (In fact it was very hard not to jump up and audibly cheer when the Judge severely chastised the Defence Councel on Friday for his smear campaign on Frank Mottrell) lol

  the watchtower believes he is more responsible

  Well this statement isn't a surprise is it? This is the pattern they have followed down through the years with every mistake they make....it's always someone else's fault.

  I plan on being there myself on Monday and look forward to seeing everyone else who can make it as well.

  Had Enough
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  To Pathofthorns

  by Had Enough in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi path: .

  i've been trying to email you but it keeps being returned to me undelivered.

  could you email me so i can reply to it please?

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  Had Enough

  Hi Path:

  I've been trying to email you but it keeps being returned to me undelivered. Could you email me so I can reply to it please? Hopefully that will work.

  Thanks, Had Enough
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  18

  NEWS - VICKI BOER ABUSE CASE - Globe and Mail

  by hawkaw in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  here is the globe and mail's article .

  man we really got in all the papers folks except for the toronto star.

  they kinda had a logistic problem.

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  Had Enough

  Christian Observer:

  Sorry, but wasn't it Messrs. Gnam and Day (Mia's lawyers - and how did a minor afford to engage 2 lawyers???) who went on record just a few days ago saying that they were going to follow Mia's wishes and pursue a case relating to the rights of teenagers.....? So how does that sit with the interrogation and treatment of children and teenagers by the WTBTS in abuse cases.....? Not too well imo!

  I agree with Scully that you've made an excellent point. And one that I hope will strike the heart of many observers and those in positions of authority that can use this point.

  To hear Vicki recount how devastated this interrogation over and over again was, emphasized to all just how destructive the elders' actions were and have been for so many. Their total concern was not for her the victim, but for the accused, and how they were going to treat this..."as uncleanness, loose conduct or pornea...each being dealt with differently"....and of course the primary concern was for the congregation and the "name of the organization".

  The elders and the WTS are being shown as being totally incompetant in investigating and the eyes of the world and the JWs are on them.

  Hey (((Dana))): You pulled out many pertinent statements in this issue of untrained men in way over their heads when it comes to issues as abuse. You used the word "insensitive" and that struck me because I wrote down a similar word in my notes...."indifferent".

  Vicki generously stressed that "the elders weren't cruel, just unconcerned for her". I put "indifferent" in brackets beside that statement in my notes as to how it struck me.

  All this was just from the first day..the first of fourteen. I'm so enthused all this is coming out in the public for so many reasons: for the truth to be known by both JWs and non-JWs at last and for all the victims who have suffered in silence having been made to feel that it was their fault...that they brought it on themselves. I truly hope this will help start a healing for all.

  Had Enough
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  7

  NEWS ALERT - VICKI BOER TRIAL/Canadian Press

  by hawkaw in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  this story should be in most candian news papers tomorrow morning.

  also look for it on the radio.

  also we have had major local tv news play in toronto.

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  Had Enough

  Hi Path:

  Thanks for posting this letter. It says it all about the basic problem.

  After hearing the testimony of what a 15 year old was put through by those elders, I shudder to think of how younger children could possible withstand it. I can only hope that the WTS will be able to see the damage they have done and take the proper steps to correct it.

  The editor's comment added the icing to it as well.

  Had Enough
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  9

  Former JW weeps as she describes abuse by father

  by Dogpatch in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  from: http://canada.com/news/story.asp?id=65975f8a-745b-47b6-b293-57bdb52ac481

  former jehovah's witness weeps as she describes abuse at hands of father

  james mccarten

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  Had Enough

  Am I missing something here or is this a complete contradiction on the WTS's part?

  The Watchtower has not yet had the chance to defend itself in court, although in a statement of defence it says it has "no knowledge of the allegations" that Boer was abused and that the abuse was never reported to church elders in Shelburne or to the Children's Aid Society.

  The defendants also deny that two elders, Brian Cairns and Steve Brown, prevented Boer from reporting her allegations to the society or from seeking psychological help

  But right after that it states that the two elders "Brown and Cairns were instrumental in ensuring the matter was reported"

  "The defendants deny they prevented the reporting of the subject matter to the proper authorities," the statement says

  "To the contrary, the defendants Brown and Cairns were instrumental in ensuring the matter was reported . . . if the plaintiff chose not to seek advice from a psychiatrist or psychologist, it was solely of her own volition and because she believed such advice was unnecessary."

  How could Brown and Cairns be instrumental in reporting the abuse, if the abuse, as the WTS says, was never reported to the elders?

  Yes the WTS lawyer tried to emphasize that Vicki deliberately chose not to get help from a psychiatrist and not to report the abuse.

  Vicki answered Yes...out of fear. Fear of repercussions from the congregation and from her father....And that at 15 years of age, it never came to her mind that she should report it.

  What do they expect from a 15 year old being interrogated by several men on several separate meetings, (one elder brought in was a stranger to her), to repeat all the details over and over again, who "suggested" she was exaggerating and made her feel it was her fault How many 15 year olds would think..."Oh yes now I must go and report this to more adults...strangers... and tell these details over and over again and then have to suffer even more reproach from the congregation that I'm getting now"?

  Not many I'd say!!!

  BTW....the WTS had the big gun there passing notes up to the WT lawyers.....Glen Howe himself.

  Yes Vicki handled herself very well today given the circumstances of what she had to report.

  Had Enough
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  35

  Pack your bags - we're going on a GUILT TRIP!

  by Scully in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=35901&site=3 .

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=35828&site=3 .

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=35861&site=3 .

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  Had Enough

  How about the ones I hear now that I'm not going to the meetings?

  "I want you to stand beside me in the new system to greet our parents back from the grave? I want them to wake up and see us both standing here hand-in-hand waiting to welcome them back".

  I still choke up when I think of that one. And there's more of these remarks from various family members I've been told to try to "lure" me back to the meetings...as if that is the most important thing that will get me through Armageddon. The sad thing is that the ones saying these things so truly believe they are doing this to "help" me. Its all just so sad!

  Had Enough
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  38

  JW funeral and I am DF'd

  by Vivamus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have not been a very active poster lately [have you missed me?].

  there has been plenty of drama in my life the last few weeks, and my time has been absorbed by it.

  my grandma is seriously ill, and has but a few more months to live.

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  Had Enough

  I'm so sorry you have to deal with these insensitive yahoos as well as with your emotions about losing your Grandma.

  I agree with all the others, that you DO NOT have to sit at the back of the hall even if asked to move. That is OLD stuff. They haven't seen the NEW LIGHT yet. You deserve to sit right at the front WITH your family without any repercussions to your JW family later.

  PLEASE NOTE: I had a similar situation with a df'd family member coming to a JW relative's funeral just this year.

  The df'd family member sat with us. He talked with us. We hugged. AND several elders and their wives talked with him AND hugged him too. I was asked later by one elder, if we noticed that display of love to him and how nice it was for them to be able to do to that since the Society DOES ALLOW them to show sympathy to a df'd family member at his relative's funeral.

  So be strong. They have NO authority over you.

  Had Enough
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  12

  Anderson's Go to Canada to Testify

  by silentlambs in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  joe and barbara anderson will be representing silentlambs.org at the victoria boer sexual child abuse trial in toronto, canada that will begin on sept. 9th.

  the andersons need a place to stay for approximately one night in toronto during the trial where barbara will be called to testify against the watchtower.

  in addition, if they could find a place to stay somewhere near northern indiana or michigan, on the way from tennessee to the trial, and a place to stay when they return, it would save silentlambs motel costs.

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  Had Enough

  Bill: Please check for an email I sent to you last night.

  Thanks, Had Enough
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  28

  Thanks for the BS

  by safe4kids in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  well well....how wonderful it is to see people taking potshots at one another, to see a group of people who could be supporting and helping one another instead turn to infighting and slagging.

  i'm disgusted by it all, i really am.

  in the last year or so that i've been online, i thought that i had made some real friends, i thought that it was possible to really get to know people thru this modern miracle of technology.

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  Had Enough

  Hey there lady I'm right here beside you on this one.

  I understand totally how you are feeling. I've had many times feeling disgusted too over different directions some individuals were trying to take this board. I've written and deleted more thoughts before I could post them, that I could count, so I'm glad to hear you venting about this. I know for a fact there are more out there that feel the same way.

  I am really disappointed in seeing so many so-called adults behaving worse than children, stamping their feet because they don't get their way. Sometimes a 4-letter word does get the point across better, but it certainly becomes abused here too often.

  However, there are so many positive things this board has to offer and so many useful purposes this board serves. Well-thought out posts using discretion, maturity, and caring do more good than someone who displays a selfish, too-full-of-themselves attitude. I still firmly believe we do more harm to those who are confused and searching, when some here act just like the WTS says xjws act. And just because we "can", does that automatically mean we have to "do"?

  This board has posters with such a wealth of knowledge of the WTS's past and as such, can be an invaluable aid in helping those searching for answers. It has many who are dedicated to easing the pain of those trying to deal with their pain caused by the WTS. It has many who are enthusiastic in finding ways to chip away at the control of the WTS on the unsuspecting masses. Others are gifted with a great sense of humour that can accomplish so much to lighten the day and ease the tension, and there's alot more too.

  I trust Simon and Angharad's judgement and sense of fairness in dealing with this nonsense. I would like to think that those who are stomping around, crying "unfair", will eventually calm down and "hear" what's being explained to them, analyze it, stew over it and hopefully feel silly over reacting as they did.

  You've received alot of good, sensible replies already, so I'll just say, shoot me an email or give me a call when things get to you...and I'll do the same...OK?

  There, I'm done now...and I feel better too. {{{{{{Dana}}}}}}

  Had Enough
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  47

  Is there anything that could make you go back?

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  is there anything that could make you go back?.

  what do you think, is there any change of belief or change of circumstance that could make you return to the jw fold?.

  i cant see anything that could make me go back,but i was thinking mabye some of you religious types would go back if they changed some doctrinal things,or if they stopped banning blood.. how about if a family member was dying and hoped to see you in paradise would you go back for a while just to make them feel happy?

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  Had Enough

  I agree with Mary's list"

  "Lets see: If they:

  Changed their policies on child molestation;

  Dropped the 1914, 1918, 1919 bullshit;

  Let us celebrate birthdays, Mothers Day, Fathers Day, etc.;

  Didn't make kids stand outside in the hallway for "opening exercises", thus ensuring a life time being made to feel like an asshole;

  Didn't make you go knocking on strangers doors telling them they're going to die if they don't become a Dub;

  Didn't make you go to 5 freaking meetings a week;

  Let women actually have a say in the way things were run;

  Re-instated everyone who appeared on Dateline and apologized to them;

  Re-instated Ray Franz and that whole group that got screwed in the early 1980s;

  Let you buy lottery tickets if you wanted;

  Encouraged young ones to get a good education;

  Encouraged you to think and question things;

  Elected elders that had at least the IQ of Forrest Gump;

  Let everyone partake of the emblems at the Memorial;"

  Yes..I agree with EVERYTHING in that list

  And I would add...I might go back when the WTS:

  -Re-instated all the ones they df'd and/or da'd for stating they didn't want to be a JW anymore;

  -Dropped the shunning policies;

  -Actually became the "non-profit charity" group they CLAIM to be, and dispersed their wealth to help the poor, widows and orphans, homeless, and ill,..just like Jesus' example'

  -Apologized and begged our forgiveness for all the hurt, pain, suffering and broken families they have caused;

  -Admitted their error and apologized for lying to us about their UN involvement;

  -Admitted their error and apologized for all the deaths they've caused by their "No Blood" lie;

  -Admitted their error and apologized to all the families of those who lost their lives or suffered incarceration when they inforced their 'no alternative military service" rules;

  -And a whole lot more....... OR

  WHEN HELL FREEZES OVER.....WHICHEVER COMES FIRST

  Had Enough

  PS....LOL at 'outoftheorg's' conditions